Caller Questions & Discussion:

1. Dr. Jacqui discusses what to do when someone you know is suicidal.
2. My 21-year-old nephew is an atheist, uses substances to drown his sorrows, and has put his hands on his mother more than once. We lost a sibling to suicide, so that might be why my sister is overprotective.
3. The hosts discuss why betrayed women are reluctant to get help for themselves.
4. How do I love and support my 22-year-old daughter without supporting the lesbian lifestyle? My daughter is in a lesbian relationship, and we are Christians who want to love and support her while staying true to our beliefs.

New Life Live — Program Transcript

Air Date: September 10

Hosts: Brian Perez, Dr. Alice Benton (Clinical Psychologist), and Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist), with a visit from New Life President Becky Brown

Welcome to New Life Live, the premier place to receive free advice from Christian psychologists and counselors for the mental, emotional, relational, and spiritual challenges you face. Since 1988, we’ve offered compassionate responses that combine God’s truth with proven psychological principles to guide you toward healing. Our phone lines are open. Call us now at 1-800-229-3000.

Opening: A Conversation About Suicide Awareness

Brian Perez: Hey, welcome to New Life Live. Thank you so much for joining us today. My name is Brian Perez. I’m here with clinical psychologist Dr. Alice Benton and licensed marriage and family therapist Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris. Ladies, it is so good to be here with you today. Jacqui, what’s on your mind to start us off?

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, with it being Suicide Awareness Day, I have been thinking about how important suicide conversations are and how difficult they are. You know, sometimes we notice that somebody’s not themselves and maybe they’re withdrawing or talking about being too much of a burden, saying people would be better off without them. Maybe they’ve started to seem hopeless or wanting to get rid of things, and we start to worry about their safety. But then we become afraid ourselves, and in our fear we don’t ask the question.

I’ve found amongst my friends and family and even clients that people are often surprised when I very directly say, “Are you thinking about ending your life? Are you thinking about suicide? Are you thinking about harming yourself? Are you thinking about harming someone else?” And it’s because we don’t want to make people feel bad. So out of our own fear, we don’t do the very thing someone needs.

I have heard people say, “Well, I don’t want to cause them to do that,” or “I don’t want to put it on their mind if it’s not already on their mind.” But asking someone directly about suicide doesn’t put the idea in their head. It actually lets them know that you see them, you care about them, that they matter, and that you’re willing to hear what they have to say.

And as Christians, sometimes I think we feel pressured to immediately give a scripture, or “I’ll pray for you,” or tell people, “God has a plan.” And yes, those things are true and they can be meaningful, but it’s often not the right answer. Often people just simply need you to be willing to stay. They need to know that they matter enough that even though they are in pain, and their pain hurts you, you will sit with them — that they do matter.

So listen. Don’t judge. Don’t minimize their pain — “Oh, it’s fine, we all go through things like that,” or “That happened a long time ago, you should be over that by now.” Don’t try to fix everything in the moment. Sometimes people just need to sit in what hurts, and that is okay. Help them connect to someone who can provide support. Help them connect to New Life. Help them connect to a counselor. Help them find a Life Recovery Group so that they can be around other people who can help them see their own value. Suicide prevention doesn’t always begin with having great words or the perfect words. Sometimes it’s just noticing that someone is struggling and being willing to stay.

Dr. Alice Benton: I find that those who are suffering usually want to be asked and wish people would ask them. And you don’t have to be a therapist to ask. It’s okay if you don’t have all the answers. Because if your loved one says, “Yes, I want to hurt myself, I do want to die,” then it can be as simple as calling us at New Life. It can be as simple as calling the suicide prevention hotline, 988.

I’ve called 988 in order to get a sense of what happens when someone calls. I found that the person who answered was well equipped, so kind, and very patient. They know what to do. We know what to do. All you have to do, if your loved one says they want to hurt themselves, is reach out for help from professionals, and we’ll walk you through what to do next.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: And I think sharing that also with our kids. I had a conversation with someone whose child came home and said their friend told them that they’d been wanting to hurt themselves, and the kid didn’t know what to do. So we were able to say, “Walk them to the nurse’s office, walk them to the principal’s office, walk them to an adult, and stay with them and have that conversation.” It’s a conversation my family also has from time to time, knowing that the increase in suicidal ideation is so strong today. Our kids need to be equipped.

Dr. Alice Benton: They do. They’re out in the world, and people say mean things, and so we need to tell them that their life matters and that they can talk to us about anything.

Brian Perez: Yep. We’ll be right back on New Life Live. Gigi, you’ll be our first call, so hang on.

Resources Mentioned

Brian Perez: Since we were just on the topic of suicide, I want to let you know about a couple of articles that we have available on our website, newlife.com. One of them is called “What to Do When Someone Is Suicidal.” It probably has the information that Jacqui just gave, maybe some extra stuff as well. So check that out at newlife.com.

We also have a tip sheet. If you yourself have that suicidal thinking, it’s called “Eight Steps to Breaking Free from Suicidal Thinking.” We can send you that tip sheet when you call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. Or, you know what, just order that tip sheet anyway. Have it handy just in case something happens and you wind up having a conversation with someone. Again, that one’s called “Eight Steps to Breaking Free from Suicidal Thinking.” Call us to get it. And if you’re watching on Facebook or YouTube, we’ll put that information in the show notes there.

Caller: Gigi from Orlando, Florida

Brian Perez: Let’s go to the phones now. Here is Gigi, who listens to us on newlife.com in Orlando, Florida. Hey there, Gigi. Welcome to New Life Live.

Gigi: Thank you.

Brian Perez: How can we help you today?

Gigi: This topic is kind of multifaceted, but it comes down to things like boundaries. I’m an aunt watching my sister deal with my nephew and the havoc that he’s wreaking on my sister’s marriage, and it’s just hard to watch. He’s 21. We’re a Christian family. He was brought up to know the Lord, and he’s saying that he’s an atheist. And he’s so bitter against all of us, his parents. He’s using substances to drown his sorrows. And it could be worse — I don’t want it to be worse — but he’s had trouble controlling his emotions and anger and has put his hands on his mother more than once, but not recently.

And she still is in denial. She’ll tell me one thing and then deny it the next, because it’s hard. She doesn’t want the family to be prejudiced against him. But it’s too late now. We don’t feel safe. And it’s just hard.

Dr. Alice Benton: Can I pause you for a minute? She doesn’t want the family to be prejudiced against him — so she doesn’t want the family to react negatively to his behavior and kind of not want him around. Is that what you’re saying?

Gigi: Yes, that’s correct.

Dr. Alice Benton: And he doesn’t want to be around you guys either, right?

Gigi: Yeah, he’s decided he’s atheist, and so, yes.

Dr. Alice Benton: You said he put hands on his mother more than once. Were there any consequences for that?

Gigi: Yes. The police came. He had to be bailed out of jail. They hired an attorney. It could have been worse. It was him struggling against the police that actually got him in trouble, and the fact that she had called because she was scared. So she blames herself for that, because he won’t let that go. He’s 21. This has happened over the course of a few years that he’s just drowned in sorrow and blaming.

Dr. Alice Benton: And Gigi, he still lives with her. Is that right?

Gigi: Yes.

Dr. Alice Benton: And you said her husband — is her husband his father?

Gigi: Oh yes, yes.

Dr. Alice Benton: So is he that way with his father as well?

Gigi: His father loves him, but he doesn’t have his son’s respect, and his son doesn’t trust his dad — and I think it’s both ways. I think my sister is his soul. She’s the person he’s latched onto for life. And with torture or love, he does something bad and then apologizes.

Dr. Alice Benton: Gigi, you’re so right to be worried about her, because she loves him, but she’s also trying to protect him from the righteous consequences of his behavior, and it’s just a setup for him to repeat it. Tell us, do you know if he experienced a major loss or trauma that might have led to him being so embittered?

Gigi: My sister would say that it is because they took him across country when he was in high school, because of a job for his dad. And while they were there, he was sad and lonely — first time in high school. A young lady broke his heart and said many awful things, and he has low self-image issues. But he’ll drag everything up. It’s amazing the memory we have when we are wanting to be bitter and resentful. He blame-shifts a lot onto them.

Dr. Alice Benton: Blame-shifting is very —

Gigi: Yes, I didn’t know that phrase.

Dr. Alice Benton: And it’s understandable that he’s hurt by these things, but of course none of it justifies his substance use and his aggressive behavior towards his mom. And she is not willing to allow the consequences for him. But she does want you to be a listening ear, which puts you in a tough position, because you probably want to intervene and she won’t allow you to. Is that right?

Gigi: Yes. It’s amazing how quickly our brains go from one thing to another. I will be wanting to encourage her, and then I have to stand up for logic, and then we pray together, and it’s so emotional all the time. I have other siblings, and they don’t want to hear it anymore, and it makes her feel so bad. And she can’t help but want to call us bad names.

Dr. Alice Benton: Oh, she’s calling you all bad names.

Gigi: Oh yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Alice Benton: So she’s verbally abusive to you, even though you’re her listener?

Gigi: Yes, because we are not living up to her needs and expectations. So the son might have gotten it honestly.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, I —

Gigi: Yes, but I know my whole sister. You know what I mean? I know —

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: You know what you see when you’re with her? I’m going to stop you there, because we have a tendency to say we know, but oftentimes we are in relationship with people in our imaginations, not the reality of how they live their life every day, because we’re not there. So we think we know — “My sister would do this,” or “My sister’s this way or that way.” But look at her life and the life circumstance that she’s in. The sister you were about to describe, that you know, wouldn’t be living in this life circumstance. So she has a part of her that isn’t the her you guys know. It is also maybe not the parent you’ve always seen.

Dr. Alice Benton: Dr. Jacqui was asking about any events that maybe had happened in his life. That move happened when he was in high school. He maybe felt like he had no say in it. They moved him. He lost friends. Loneliness. She is his person.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: “You’ve got your family. That’s enough. That’s all you need, right?” Well, if she is his person, I wonder what things had been like before he turned 21. What was it like when he was five? What were the responses when he was seven? What were the responses when he was 12? What happened when he got an F? What happened when he lost the game? Because if she’s willing to mistreat you all like that, it is so likely she responds to him in reactivity and anger, too.

Dr. Alice Benton: And they’re back and forth in their reactivity, and then he’s now a man and he’s getting bigger, and so it’s starting to look different. And the family doesn’t enjoy being around him. Have you guys — when he was younger — did you enjoy being together as a family with your sister and her husband and your nephew?

Gigi: Well, my sister saved him. He was always bailed out. He had two older sisters, so he was always saying, “I’ll have what she’s having,” and “Oh, she’s going to help me with my homework,” things like that. He was given a lot of leniency because he was the baby.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: The baby.

Gigi: Yeah. If he just said “Mama” enough, he was going to get his way — or get a spanking.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: So would the spanking be from Mom?

Gigi: Oh yeah.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: So he had a situation that might have been a little bit disorganized, and so he couldn’t tell if he’s going to get the wrath of Mom or the coddling of Mom.

Gigi: That is true.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: What was childhood like for you and your sister?

Gigi: Well, I just want to touch on something else. My sister was a great mother. I know exactly what she was going through. I saw it up front.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: No judgment. We all do the best we can with what we have. But what did you guys come out of? What did you see? How were you parented?

Gigi: We had parents that were Christian. We all could have been better. But I can tell you, we had a sorrowful loss in 2007. My sister — she committed suicide. There’s too much to even go into, but the point is she was an angel. She loved Jesus, and she had some mental illness that — well, we failed her in fellowship, too. I feel like we did. My sister does not want another angel. Do you know what I mean?

Dr. Alice Benton: Of course. So she might overprotect her son because she doesn’t want him to commit suicide. That completely makes sense. That is it.

Dr. Alice Benton: So, Gigi, I think there are two things that you have in your power to do, because so much of this is outside of your ability to really control. You might consider a family intervention, because your nephew is the obvious problem, but you’re pointing out there is brokenness in the family — and there is in all of our families. A family interventionist, and we have a couple of great people that we can recommend, would be able to help decipher who most needs the intervention. The nephew looks like the obvious one, but he may not be the only one. An intervention brings to bear truth about how the chaotic behavior is affecting the family — that’s the way your sister abuses you, but it’s also the way the nephew abuses your sister. And it offers options for healing, but their response to that is out of your control, as you well know.

And so if your sister continues to be abusive to you, you may have to start protecting yourself by limiting your exposure to her. She’s getting all this free therapy from you.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Oh, I wouldn’t call it therapy.

Dr. Alice Benton: Well, you’re her good listening ear. But because you’re her main listener, I think she doesn’t know she needs more help, or she’s not willing or able to go get more professional help. And you need some of that responsibility taken off of your shoulders and transferred to a professional. I have the feeling your sister’s not real willing to get help.

Gigi: Well, the good news on that end — all these months that I have been harping on “You need somebody to talk to, you need somebody to tell you how to talk it over with” — she’s got a therapist.

Dr. Alice Benton: Terrific. God is good. So celebrating that is right to do. But you still can limit your exposure to her. So that may be, “I’ve got five minutes to listen to you. If you get mean, if you get loud, I will hang up.”

Gigi: Oh wow.

Dr. Alice Benton: Or, “I’m not willing to hear about this anymore. Please take this to your therapist.” Gigi, you said “Oh wow” twice. What has come up for you?

Gigi: That just breaks my heart. Wow.

Dr. Alice Benton: You want to find a way to fix it without her having to suffer the consequences. In the same way, she wants to find a way to fix it for her son without him having to face the consequences. She’s not going to grow without the consequence. If you continue to subject yourself to her behavior, you are doing exactly what she is doing with her son.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: How does that land, Gigi?

Gigi: She’s been there for all of us every time we needed her.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Would she tell you wonderful things about her son? It’s the same cycle.

Dr. Alice Benton: And Gigi, oddly enough, removing yourself to some distance — it loves her better than just being her listener, because it will force more discomfort, which makes it more likely that she’ll receive the help she’s getting from her therapist.

Brian Perez: Gigi, thanks for calling us today here on New Life Live. We know we offered you a lot of suggestions, and go back and listen to the archive so that you can find out more.

New Life President Becky Brown Joins the Program

Brian Perez: We are back on New Life. Brian Perez here, along with doctors Jacqui Mack-Harris and Alice Benton. And look who’s joining us — it’s New Life President Becky Brown. Hey, Becky.

Becky Brown: Hello. Surprise. My heart is hurting for Gigi and her family. So many times we hear the efforts that people are putting into trying to fix the problem. And I’m so grateful that we are here for her to reach out and talk to both you, Jacqui, and Alice, with that compassionate care and insightful truth that you gave her. And you gave her next steps. The only way we can do that is because people are generous and support New Life. They’ve been either part of our 99 for the One monthly donation, or they give big gifts, because out of the abundance that God has given them, they want to give back to make sure that the hope of a new life is there.

I was thinking about “Every Man’s Battle,” and we hear so many testimonies. One in particular: Nick felt dead inside. Pornography, lust, and affairs gave him temporary relief, but the emptiness always returned. And while he tried different programs, he was stuck and began to lose hope. His wife gave him an ultimatum — and we hear that a lot here. She said, “You need to go to Every Man’s Battle.” He was hesitant, but he went, and he discovered what was fueling the addiction. He had a safe, shame-free zone and godly counselors who have been on this journey. They know what it’s like to be stuck and to find that freedom in Christ.

New Life has had the privilege to walk alongside so many people for close to 40 years. And we couldn’t do it unless God was moving in the hearts of you, our donors and our listeners, to be part of what God is doing through New Life. So I just wanted to come on today and encourage you: if you have not supported us yet, today’s the day. And Brian, how can they give?

Brian Perez: Oh, there’s several ways, Becky. They can go online to newlife.com. They can call us at 1-800-NEW-LIFE. They can text NLM — as in New Life Ministries — to 28950. And yeah, if you want to make a big gift today, we are not going to say, “No, no, no, let’s break it up into two or three gifts.” No, no — we’ll take it, because we appreciate so much what you guys do, what the Lord lays on your heart to give toward New Life so that we can continue what we’re doing.

And sometimes it’s people like our last caller, Becky, who are calling on behalf of someone else, because they see the turmoil that their family is going through, or a friend or a neighbor. They call because they’re like, “You know what, I trust you guys, you can help. Give me some tips to help my friend. Give me a tip sheet that I can give my friend, because there’s so much going on.” And there’s not too many places — I can’t even think of one — where somebody on a live program would pick up a phone call. We don’t know what you’re going to ask. We don’t know what the situation is. And we are ready to give you the next step, because we know that God is working through the ministry and through our incredible co-hosts.

Becky Brown: We’ve been doing this a long time. We’ve been helping so many people, and you’re probably one of them, listener. You’ve been impacted. And so today’s the day. Thanks for letting me jump on, and let’s go back to the calls.

Brian Perez: Anytime, Becky. Anytime. It’s so good to hear from Becky when she tells us these stories of listeners that she’s heard firsthand of how New Life Ministries has helped. And I remember recently, Alice, you were talking about how there were things you were going through — you didn’t even know New Life was around, and then you found New Life, and boom.

Dr. Alice Benton: That’s right. Even though I grew up in the faith, and I went to college for psychology, I really hadn’t found a resource that combined those two things together. And that’s what New Life does very uniquely. It shows us how the two go hand in hand and are both necessary for our healing.

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: I love that New Life exists, because I came up in a church where psychology was bad, and so the church would tell you not to see a therapist — all you need is the Bible, and your pastor. If your pastor doesn’t say it, then you shouldn’t hear it. And so it was a joy for me to find New Life and to find these professionals who have this wisdom, who are God-led, who come prayed up and ready to see what the Holy Spirit will use them to do. Over the years I’ve been able to have conversations with and meet so many people who love New Life, who call in and who listen regularly. It’s a gift to our community, and we really appreciate that people continue to give so that we can continue to serve.

Dr. Alice Benton: And it’s not just about listening and receiving the wisdom, but about putting it into practice, especially with the New Life family that believes in these principles together, knows they’re broken, and wants to heal and is actively taking those steps. Because wisdom alone, information alone, is not enough. It needs to be practiced with other people. That’s that iron that sharpens iron. And I’ve never found better iron than at New Life.

Brian Perez: Those formative years for me too were also, you know, no psychology — just whatever your pastor says, that’s all you need. Psychology was just man’s wisdom instead of God’s wisdom. Well, here at New Life, we combine these things, and we put God’s word first in front of everything that we do, because that’s what it’s all about. We’re not here to just tell you what we think — we search the scriptures and we give you godly advice, and we want to keep doing it. So if you can help us today, go to newlife.com, or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, or text NLM to 28950. Thank you for your generosity.

Email Question: Debbie

Brian Perez: So we have several ways that you can ask your question. Our favorite way is when you call into the studio when we’re here taking calls, and you can find out more about that on our website, newlife.com/radio, which shows our recording schedule. It also gives you a phone number where you can leave a voicemail. And there’s also a form that you can fill out so that you can send us an email with your question. That is what Debbie did.

Debbie asks, “How do I love and support my 22-year-old daughter without giving support to the lesbian lifestyle?” Debbie says her daughter is in a lesbian relationship. She’s never exhibited this tendency before. She’s not had any boyfriends, but she’s wanted one desperately. They’re Christian; she’s been raised in the church. She thinks God is okay with her lifestyle. “So how do I love and support her?” What do you guys say to Debbie?

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: I say love her and support her as the person. That’s hard, though, I think, for Debbie to be able to do, because Debbie’s not able to separate out her daughter’s relational activity from the person that she is. What I would wonder is: what has your relationship with her been like? What does love look like? What does it mean to love someone? I would go to scripture and look at what scripture says about love, and see if those are thoughts, tenets, behaviors, ways of being that you find in your relationship with your daughter.

And then this is something I ask people regularly: how is that other person’s sex life affecting you? I think as Christians, we spend an enormous amount of time concerned about other people’s sexual health and sex life, and I just don’t see God being nearly as concerned about everybody else’s sex life as we are. I think we as Christians have made that a focal point, and we are doing a disservice. We are not introducing people to Jesus. We’re introducing people to rules and propriety, and Jesus came to set us free. Either we are free in Christ or we are not.

And if I help someone know Jesus — I’ve introduced them to Jesus, I’ve walked through the Roman Road with them, they’ve accepted Christ and they know Jesus — the rest is not my business. I trust the Holy Spirit to do what he’s going to do. And if they end up in a homosexual relationship, drug-addicted, in a violent abusive relationship, anything — that is between them and God at that point. All God has called me to do is love God with all my heart, soul, and mind, and to love others as I love myself. So I think as Christians, we have to check ourselves. We are the ones falling out of line. I don’t have anything to do with your marriage — whether you are in a same-sex marriage or a gendered marriage, I have nothing to do with that. What God has called me to do is to help you know Jesus. And if I’ve done that, then I know I’ve done my work, and I trust the Holy Spirit to handle anything that God’s not pleased with.

Dr. Alice Benton: Debbie, your question must have a lot of fear and pain to it, and I know I would feel similarly if I were in your shoes. We’re getting this question more and more frequently from other parents who wonder, “Why did my good Christian upbringing not seem to stick in this area of my child’s life?” — especially when your daughter sounds like she expressed a desire for a boyfriend for a long time. What a shock that she then introduces you to her girlfriend.

I think you will not like some of the things that I have to say, because getting to know her partner is a way to love her and to love the partner. But I think that might not feel right to you to do. I think you can be a Christian influence in both of their lives more by your actions than by your words of opposition. There could be a tendency towards judgmentalism out of your fear — and I would have that same tendency in your shoes. And you might possibly be wondering, “Did I fail my daughter? What did I do wrong that this is a choice she has made?” So I want you to be really careful about judgmentalism coming out.

I also think we are called to warn other believers when we see that there is sin behavior, or to warn those who are stumbling toward the edge. So I think it’s a parental obligation to say — once, with a whole lot of love and kindness and humility — “I am an imperfect parent, and I also need to point something out, because I love you so much. I am confused that you’re both a Christian and you’re choosing a homosexual relationship. What’s your understanding of what the Bible has to say about that? I really want to understand your perspective as a Christian.” Be more of a listener, Debbie, than a speaker.

But once, it’s important to conclude with, “I disagree with you. I think this part of your relationship is out of alignment with God’s will, and I need to point that out because I love you and I don’t want you to have unnecessary suffering in your life. All the times I’ve been out of alignment with God’s will — my lying, my extramarital emotional affair, my excessive alcohol use — I was out of alignment with his will, and it brought suffering on me too. So I’m going to keep loving you, I’m going to keep praying for you, and I thank you that you heard this conversation from me.”

That’s what I would have you share with your daughter. There’s a great book called Embodied by Preston Sprinkle. He’s a clinician who has specialized in this very thing: What do we do with both Christianity and same-sex desire, and how do we love well? And we do it a lot more with behavior than with words.

Brian Perez: Isn’t loving and supporting the partner — Debbie was asking about her daughter, and you both gave great advice, but when we bring the partner into it, doesn’t it seem like we’re condoning the behavior? We’ve got the holidays coming up. People are going to probably start calling soon: “Do I invite them to Thanksgiving dinner? Do I invite them to our Christmas celebration?”

Dr. Jacqui Mack-Harris: Well, I think, like Alice said, this is an opportunity for your witness. And it honestly doesn’t matter if you agree with the lifestyle or not. You’ve said you don’t agree — so in that, you have said, “This isn’t something I think is okay. I love you, but I’m concerned for you. I’m concerned for how this will impact your life.” That is your “I don’t agree.” But we are called to love others. We’re called to love our enemies. We’re called to love our neighbors. We’re called to love ourselves. We’re called to love God. We are not called to not love anybody. Period. And we are not doing a great job of that as Christians.

So I agree that is one way to show your daughter love and acceptance of her as a person. You don’t have to accept someone’s experience or their life in order to validate them as a person. And so when her friend comes over, you have boundaries in place regardless of whether your child is dating someone you approve of or not, right? Hopefully they respect your home and they respect your rules. But you get to set boundaries. And you’re right, the holidays are coming up, and this definitely is going to be a topic at many tables, because some families are estranged, because it is preferable to not have the other person around than to have that discomfort of, “Well, we disagree with this lifestyle.” But I agree with Dr. Alice. I think it can be a way that your Christian witness can go forward. We have people in our life who don’t believe how we believe, and whose actions and behaviors are not the same as our own, but they know us and love us, and we know them and we love them.

Dr. Alice Benton: If I had no sinners at my table, I wouldn’t be allowed there either. And Jesus gave a pretty neat example of going to the parties that were full of sinners, because the sinners are the ones that need him. I’m the one that needs him.

Brian Perez: Yep. Debbie, thanks for submitting your question at newlife.com/radio. We’ll talk to you next time.

Thanks for listening. We hope this program has helped you by giving you insights for handling the challenges you face in your life. We want you to know that we’re here for you, but you also need to know that New Life Live is a listener-supported ministry. To make your donation or to get any of the resources mentioned on today’s program, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. That’s 1-800-639-5433, or online at newlife.com. Please join us again tomorrow for New Life Live.

If you or someone you know is struggling

If you or someone you love is thinking about suicide or self-harm, you don’t have to face it alone. Call or text the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline at 988, or reach out to New Life at 1-800-NEW-LIFE (1-800-639-5433).